UAS News Podcast — 2013-04-24
Transcript
Welcome everyone to installment number 47 of the UAS News Podcast Series where we broadcast the news, commentary and views important to the unmanned systems industry. This week's episode is Drone Privacy. I'm your program host Patrick Egan and as always we will offer a warm welcome to our co-host Mr. Gene Robinson.
Hello Patrick, how are you sir? Happy to be here. Doing good. You know, again another busy week.
We got all kinds of stuff going on. We have a couple of guests today and this is going to be what I will call a cut-up adaptation of the usual podcast format because the guests are on time constraints and so what we will do is I think we're gonna march right on in to the show and then we'll take care of the guests and then we'll do our regular views and commentary on the news and about I don't know five other things that are going on. So without further ado we'll bring on our first guest Trevor Tim.
Trevor works the Electronic Freedom Foundation or EFF. Hello Trevor. Hey thanks for having me. Hey no problem.
I first met Trevor at the UC Berkeley Law School. There was a drone ethics and policy talk and he was part of that and that's for anybody who wants historical data that's podcast number 43 drone law takeaway. I also tweeted the link to the video from the event. Did you get a chance to watch that Trevor?
I mean I think I watched part of it as it went when I first came out a couple weeks ago. Yeah it was a little it was too bad that the audio from the audience their questions it was a little inaudible and that's too bad because I think that that was really where the insight was for people to understand where the privacy issues are and some of the thinking that some of the people had there. But anyway marching along you know maybe Trevor you could give us the what I like to call the perfunctory guest bio on yourself where you've been and how you got mixed up in all of this drone business.
I think that's possible. Sure yeah so for about I would say a year and a half now Electronic Frontier Foundation has been working on the domestic drone issue. I think probably when we first started barely anybody knew that domestic drones were even a thing. I mean I'm sure listeners of the show did but a lot of the general public did I think and you know part of our goal was to kind of educate people that this domestic drones were going to become a huge issue down the road
and the first thing we wanted to do was kind of tackle some of the secrecy surrounding the FAA and how they were handing out drone authorizations because as I'm sure you know the FAA has been really secretive about who they're handing licenses to, what these organizations are doing with drones, who's flying them and the like even though with manned aircraft they're obviously very transparent about
that kind of information.
So we ended up filing a Freedom of Information Act request about a year and a half ago. The FAA didn't respond to it so we ended up suing them in federal court you know basically demanding that they release this information. So when they did back in April last year was basically the first time they had released information on drone authorizations and so slowly over the last since last April they've been releasing this information once every couple months
but again the information is usually outdated or incomplete and so we'd like them to set up a system where they're releasing this information regularly and being more transparent.
Another thing we've been doing at ESF with drones is once we found out the FAA wasn't really being forthcoming about a lot of information we started sending public records requests to police departments to find out if they had plans to get drones and if so what were they going to do with them and if they already had them what kind they were and what they had already done with them. So we've sent out about 400 public records requests so far and based on this information we keep getting information back pretty much every week.
You can go to MupRock.com or partner in that to get more information about our what we call the 2012 drone census. So I mean a lot of our work has been focused on transparency but I think going forward the second half of our work is definitely focused on privacy because we want to make sure that when police get their hands on domestic drones when they have you know so many good uses that the technology that's attached to them doesn't get abused
and used for surveillance purposes or for invading people's privacy and you know I'm sure we can talk about it more but a lot of states right now are coming out with legislation that kind of deals with this problem and it's become a quite a hot issue.
Right well we're going to touch on that to our other guest. We're going to touch on what's going on down in Texas because and then also our podcast co-host is from Texas but you covered a lot of real estate and let's you know let's roll back just a little bit. You know the information and like I was like I had said I think at the UC Berkeley law school thing you know I had foiled that same information that you guys foiled back in I believe it was 2008 September of either 2008 or 2009. I want to say 2008 though and I got the total stonewall from the FAA.
The other thing that I was asking for was the experimental certificates and I don't know if you guys foiled that. I know you were more successful because you guys sued but that might be another thing that you want to do because there were the FAA is very cagey and I mean you probably started deducing this but they are not forthcoming with information. No certainly not. No and there seems to be very little oversight
and less in the way of accountability which to me is kind of surprising and that may feed into something else later on in the show but I will say that you know you have to understand what the COA thing and the experimental thing and I'm going to go out on a limb here.
I have some experience here. You know let's say there's certain COAs that are out there now that people are using for what I would call commercial purposes. Same with the experimental certificates. They don't really want to share that and so there is special dispensation for special people and if special people have you know let's say moneyed interests and have lobbyists and whatever else they seem to be able to get special treatment
and one of those I don't know if you guys found that COA but there was one up there and I think it was in the Arctic and they were supposedly counting walruses up there but really what was going on is they were doing some work for shell and I like to call that one the shell game but I don't know did you guys find that one up there?
I think it was Robert. No I don't know if I knew about that. Yeah there was that one. There was another one DHS had for the skybus system which I foiled that, renamed it, time everything else I foiled that several years ago still waiting nothing.
I mean I've got a ton of foils into the FAA they just don't do it even through my congressperson's office. Yeah exactly they weren't giving us any help until we actually sued them and still they've been slowly releasing more information at a really a stale pace and we've actually sued them a second time now but we're still waiting for the results of that lawsuit but yeah they have not really been forthcoming
and I can see how that happened to you when you when you foiled the stuff back in 2008. Yeah well you know it's kind of even the treatment that my congressperson has gotten I would say is if I was a congressperson I'd be I'd be a little I don't know hot under the collar I guess but you know that's another thing maybe we could talk about in the future too is let's say a little bit more detailed information in your request because
I do believe that there are some operations that are going on out there that if some small guy was doing it he would be busted for commercial activity and skybus is one of the examples you know they got an experimental certificate went out there and they were out flying around for a month and they basically you know they didn't get paid for the flying but they got paid for everything else and it'd be it'd be interesting to understand how that happened
and and from my point of view not that I just want to you know be a troublemaker my my thing is is that you know whatever people are doing so they can operate in the nas and make money we should be able to level the playing field and everybody else should be able to do that too does that make sense to everyone else yeah I mean that makes sense let's go ahead and gene what do you think trust me we've been talking about the level playing field for five years
and all we want to do is I don't think that anybody uh denies that there shouldn't be some regulation and oversight of drug usage but uh everybody should be able to follow the same rules and and you know take advantage of the technology and utilize it in a commercial fashion we've always said that so there's nothing to do there uh just you know give us the rules and we'll all play by them well and if you're going to make special rules for some people
you got to open up those special rules for everybody else and that's kind of what I've said all along every in my interactions it's like what you know I don't care you know what company x is doing you know if you think whatever they're doing is okay but you should make that information public so company y can emulate that same model and make some money that's all you know that's all I'm saying and um
you know very secretive about that and I and probably because it's outside of the current stated policy and the other thing that cracks me up while we're on this Trevor and I don't know if you guys have uh have caught on to this one yet but the FAA is one of the only federal uh administrations that I know I know of that uh lacks a um uh an administrative uh procedures manual there's none they just kind of make it up on the fly
I think it's kind of kind of weird but that's me anyway um let me ask you about uh Trevor your interpretations of the UC Berkeley law school event what what did you think of that well I mean I thought it was uh it was a good event um I think a lot of people hadn't heard about this issue everywhere I speak I feel like a lot of people haven't heard about the issue or don't know exactly what's going on
so I think that was great I mean I think you were a little numbered in the crowd but uh overall I thought it was a good event we covered a lot of ground I think yeah we did I yeah I I thought the same thing we covered a lot of ground um you know I didn't really I I did feel like there was a little bit of overt hostility towards the AUVSI uh where people were saying you know like you're you're part of the drone dealer lobby
and whatever else and you know whatever I do think that there was a little bit of relief uh from folks when I said that no topics were off the table I think that people uh felt a little bit better about the conversation that I was going to be open and honest about it and I didn't really feel like um I towards the end I felt that people had a better understanding of the technology and that there are people out there talking about saying uses what do
you think?
Yeah exactly I mean I I always try to make that point too it's not that I'm necessarily anti-drone or anti-technology and there are a lot of great uses that we can figure out that you know even law enforcement can use these for but it's important to at the same time be able to protect people's privacy in a in a binding way that they kind of make sure that everybody's fears are are taken care of before these get in the air.
Right well I think that's an education thing I mean let's you know I don't really want to I don't really want to dwell on what happened in Boston the tragedy or whatever else but I do want to just compartmentalize uh kind of let's say the surveillance part of that and I think it's at the forefront of everybody's um I'd say consciousness right now but even watching the the footage uh that was out there
and all of the different camera feeds I mean there were multiples uh even in the end when they uh they used the IR sensor to uh find suspect number two underneath the cover of the boat there um you know to be honest uh even that IR footage that they used on the boat that's nothing compared to uh the the good stuff that's on the manned assets now.
Trevor maybe you could give me your impression of all of the video surveillance and uh whatever else that intelligence that was gathered in in let's say the Boston case what what do you guys think about that? Well I mean I don't think anybody would argue that it's a good thing that we were able to use technology to track down these suspects they're obviously a huge public safety threat and you know the technology um kind of gives everybody an idea about what's to come when it comes to drones
and uh I think it's a double-edged sword you know we would want this technology to be able to track down real criminals like the Boston suspects but the problem is that uh with drones the barrier to entry as far as um the price or or how much police pay to use these this technology goes way down you know by 50 or 100 times and the police could end up using it for all sorts of purposes that aren't related to emergencies or um even criminal investigations they could be just using it for generalized surveillance
and you know I think um well you may have thought that the sensors um the infrared cameras that picked them up in the boat um you know those are even the ones that they used were outdated I think a lot of people were really impressed with that and that can give you kind of an idea about uh what's to come and whether we want drones to be able to fly around to use these infrared cameras on um you know basically anybody they see fit
and not necessarily saying that these this technology should be outlawed but there should be some sort of oversight in place so that when police want to use this um in non-emergency situations that you know we're making sure that people's privacy is protected right but and maybe I didn't make myself clear enough on this but I mean you know from what I saw um and I'm not making any judgments on the case or even trying to make any judgments on
you know uh let's say overreaching and uh intelligence gathering or whatever else but I mean is uh EFF I mean like I said you had several different feeds from cameras in different places so I mean is that what for me I see kind of the drone thing as a touchstone for people to say oh well you know uh you know this this surveillance is going to become more prevalent but I mean these guys were on several different cameras they ran them through the software uh
you had people making uh let's say comments that these people were not uh born here because uh their pictures had already been run through every little or every other database and algorithms and facial recognition and everything else and they they couldn't find them but they had all of these different angles and all of these different camera feeds do you think that the general public this is just a question
but do you think that the general public understands the level of surveillance they're under now um I don't think they're usually ever aware of the amount of surveillance they're under I mean this situation kind of gave people a good idea I mean I think it's important to remember that a lot of the cameras a lot of the pictures that we saw were from private surveillance cameras they were from government surveillance cameras
you know cameras set up to protect people's property uh you know outside the businesses and then once the police released the original photos uh people started sending in cell phone pictures and they had taken themselves uh that weren't part of any government system either uh you know when we're talking about the facial recognition uh they actually had the pictures of these guys in their database
and the facial recognition just didn't work um you know it didn't match up the pictures with the pictures on the surveillance with the pictures they had in their database uh so I think it's you know also a lesson in in how this type of technology doesn't necessarily work every time we have to keep that in mind you know mistakes can happen the other way too where somebody gets falsely identified and we have to learn how to that um
and so you know I think it's a a good lesson in you know not blindly trusting this technology all the time and you know despite the fact that a lot of technology was used and a lot of a lot of surveillance cameras ended up helping the situation it's important to remember that you know this was basically solved by old-fashioned police work but you know hundreds of cops working 24 seven to find these guys
and you know eyewitness accounts where you know the guy was found in the boat by somebody who's walking out in his backyard originally um so you know I think it's important number one not to read too much into the technology that was used and number two be aware that sometimes you know in in situations not like the boston case it could potentially be abused hmm jean comments you know one of the things that
I thought was real important about that was the the amount of private surveillance that was utilized and we've always said that even drones are not a pan of speed I mean they're not the be all end all of everything is just another tool in the toolkit um you know you mentioned that the facial recognition software didn't work initially but you know when you did put it out in the public sector and people started to hit on those faces then it started coming with a collaborative
you know agencies and questions and the some of the other agencies that were involved and the public and you know there there was a buy-in there there was there was a common goal there that everyone went for and it was supported and I think people probably learned quite a bit about what their exposure is to surveillance and in this particular case it was very beneficial well I mean that was kind of my point the different camera angles the different pictures all of the different footage the other thing too is is
I think you know what occurred to me is is you know the kind of the the 1984 um but the image that people have in their mind that big brother is watching you I think it's turned into uh we're supplying as with social media and whatever else we're supplying big brother with the information these cameras may have been private uh so I guess you know that's another I mean I'm not a privacy expert but even that
I guess you know I've started noticing too even since this came up as a privacy thing that every place I go to um when I go to a restaurant if I go to have birthday cake I notice there's cameras I mean there's cameras everywhere and so but if that's on private property should we just expect that eff trevor well uh yeah a couple things about that you know I think there is an added layer of oversight when
you think about it when it's private cameras because um you know the the private business has to cooperate with police to begin with so you know if police come in and say oh I want to look at your surveillance tapes and they don't give a reason why the the private business doesn't have to agree you know they'll probably only look at this footage if they know there was a crime and two you know private businesses don't have an incentive to hold on to this videotape forever basically
you know they have limited storage space and probably want to delete it whereas the government has basically unlimited storage space and could use this um for who knows how long and then feed it into other databases and let other government organizations use it and I think that's where the real privacy concerns come in and you know I don't think anybody's arguing that private businesses shouldn't be able to use security cameras to guard their property
and I think in this situation we can see that that system works a lot better at protecting people's privacy than than a system of government cameras okay so let's click let's just change what the camera is mounted to it's going to be mounted to a wall we'll send it up on you know and a drone that's 100 feet up and it's private well I mean that's kind of a hypothetical situation why would you fly a drone 100 feet up when you're a restaurant or a retail store when
you can just attach a camera to the wall I mean that probably is uh unduly complicated situational awareness yeah I mean what it like about a mall I mean a mall like I mean I've thought about this for years the mall here you know it seems like at Christmas time the crime goes up um you know I used to date someone that worked at the wall and they would leave late and people were being assaulted and robbed
and all the rest and it's private property what would preclude the let's say you know mall owner x that has this big parking lot in this huge swath of territory that they have security on the ground and cameras why couldn't I have uh four or five drones flying around with cameras surveilling my private property I mean what is what is the difference there is there any difference that's a good question there may not be a difference in people's minds
I guess it depends on if you're following people around for long periods of time are you going off the property are you um what are you doing with the footage when you're done with it are you deleting it I mean there's all sorts of factors that we have to look at um and you know right now at ESF we're not necessarily kind of focused on this private surveillance we're focused more on the government side of things because that's where obviously the drone authorizations are being handed out only to public agencies
and so you know I think down the road in 2015 when they start handing out licenses to commercial agencies there will be more complex problems that we have to deal with when it comes to privacy but you know there are there is privacy tort law that protects people from you know somebody's drone like going and snooping in your window but with police I think it's a little bit more difficult because you know they need constraints by the law they can do things that private citizens can't
and so that's why we've kind of been focused on the government side of things and you know hopefully on the private side things will work themselves out and it won't be a major problem but you know I think it definitely will get more complicated as we go down the road right if I could mention something on that as well he brought up a really good point about you know it's as if it's we're entering into this 1984 type of society where we worry a lot about what the government is is capable of doing with CYS
but I think it's also important to remember that this technology particularly SUAS is enabling a lot of new civilian options with respect to observation and that observation can go both ways civilians can now as we saw in Boston participate in a limited capacity in observation but with SUAS you know they can be looking back and seeing what the government is doing and documenting this basically so
you know the technology is now going both ways UAS is becoming increasingly available to the common man yeah I mean I think that's an I think that's a good point that this drones used correctly can be used for oversight I mean there's two drone journalism programs right now being I think it's the University of Missouri and the University of Nebraska where they're training journalists to use drones for muck rating purposes
and to keep an eye on potentially either government agencies or you know corporations that may be polluting or all sorts of reasons so you know like I said I think there is definitely a lot of potential for drones and especially when we're thinking about transparency and how the government's operating there can be even drones that watch the drones so you know it sounds like an issue of training well
you know and you know this is the cut up version so I need to jump back a little bit the other guy that jumped in is as our other guest Joseph Schello I think your pronunciation is Schello okay and we were going to bring him on but things got kind of cut up on that deal the other thing is Trevor I wasn't trying to put you on the spot but I did come up with that hypothetical at the mall I am I mean there are private security firms that are going to that want this
I mean I've had private security firms and people that do security for let's say Hollywood stars have wanted to use this forever you know so I do think that that's going to happen the other thing that I would suggest too is you know I mean even with the police I suggest if you're going to use this in a law enforcement capacity and this what you're going to do is surveillance and it constitutes a search we have the fourth amendment
and you need a search warrant you know just like in any other law enforcement capacity like Jean was saying another tool in the toolbox I don't see this as any different than having a camera in a private security vehicle on the wall on a pole wherever you know this is just one more tool and the other thing is with that as you know you're talking about storage now I'm the I'm the guy at the mall and we're a very litigious society I'm going to keep the tapes of Christmas 2009 2010 2013 if there have been incidents on my property I'm keeping that as historical data to try
and endemma to demnify myself from future litigation which may be somebody in 2016 says oh you know I was over here at Christmas I got mugged they broke my jaw they stole my car whatever yada yada yada on and on and then mall owner is negligent in watching out for people's security well you know then the mall owner could say hey you know I got tapes from 10 years that show that we do everything you know due diligence to make sure our customers are safe
so I'm sure some of that video already exists so those those things I think we have to take that in perspective it's just another it's just another platform these aren't new technologies that are exclusive to drones but that would be my point of view I think what we'll do is I want to I want to bring Joseph on here and the reason that we have Joseph on here today and Trevor I know you have to go soon
but you know you can be part of this conversation too yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna have to run sorry I don't mean to interrupt but I've said for run right now I just wanted to say it was great to be on you know hopefully we can do this again soon uh yeah and are you going to the Berkeley drone town hall meeting are you going to be part of that I think I might yes okay well then I'll see you on the first oh yeah it's going to be great it's going to be a shindig um we'll have some more drone terrific
and good time there on the first of May all right all right thanks a lot thank you for being on all right um and so I think that was informative I hope everybody got something out of that but uh what we're going to do we're going to move on and uh Joseph we wanted to have you on as kind of your I know you're down there in Texas we're kind of wanted a man on the street view of the HB912 but maybe you could uh tell the audience a little bit about yourself um before we get into that yeah certainly good morning
well a little bit about me I'm currently a federal law enforcement agent down here in Texas as well as a commercial helicopter and airplane pilot um as well as a certified flight instructor so I've had some dealings with the FAA you know I've been involved in aviation for the better part the last you know 15 years but in that time also kind of kept close tabs on current events and you know technology my involvement uh sort of stemmed out of that interest um
and particularly you know in SUAS it's miniaturization you know as of late just the you know the vast potential uses in the commercial sector are what interests me uh even you know with my background having been in the military you know and in federal service I'm more interested in what this is capable of doing to to help people and to as a business so I think in particular there was one video I saw one time on a website there's some students from Stanford had put together like a multi-rotor flying through an auditorium which really just sort of captured my imagination
and it sort of you know blossomed from there right right um well you know you have this aviation background and I'm sure being around aviation you've probably commercial aviation you've you've have you dabbled in any aerial photography yeah indeed I used to work uh quite a bit actually I worked down in uh in Florida in the Fort Lauderdale Miami area uh for a charter and commercial photography company
and we would just literally go all up and down the coast the east coast of Florida uh you know doing every every sort of real estate you know boats offshore yacht magazines and all that kind of thing so you know I have a sort of an interesting perspective on that and that's kind of what got me into some of this stuff I feel that there's an enormous uh potential to to sort of have a paradigm shift in the aerial photography world uh where where camera operators
now have a you know basically a camera that's it's like their dream it's a camera that can move to any 3d point in space if you should choose to do so you can utilize a fixed wing platform suas platform to do all sorts of ortho mapping and top down mapping and I just see it you could go on and all we could talk for hours about the the near limitless possibilities and uses of suas but yeah I have done quite a bit uh on the commercial side
and full-scale aircraft as well well and that's that's kind of one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on so okay you have that perspective uh you've done that before and I'm sure there's uh processes for getting shots um you know being a pilot and getting the guy in a position the photographer where he wants to be and even in your regular job it's probably kind of the same thing so having that man perspective that's one perspective
I don't really have uh you know it's kind of a weird thing but the unmanned being from the unmanned side of things you know there's a lot of things that pilots talk about and process and whatever else and even the con ops um thinking of it from being a man pilot a lot of that stuff I don't even really possess because I don't that's not really one of my things like I don't a lot of guys oh you know
I miss the feedback when uh when the uh wheel hits the paint you know blah blah blah my you know that's just one since I've never had so I didn't know it was missing um anyway that's why we wanted to have you on so um you know we we talked a little bit offline you sent me the link to the pops eye thing which I had contributed to and the old cracker barrel was on there which that plane uh I by reference a lot that's that is the aircraft that
I used to use when I was doing this as a commercial business and I was doing uh the condo thing and and um agriculture and several other uh you know applications and that was the plane that I was using I used it more in in uh let's say populated areas um which some people may say well that's kind of irresponsible but the thing weighed less than two pounds all up foam wood frangible slow I could catch it
you know things like that so that was kind of the niche that I was in and that's what I used so you know down there in Texas you got this uh hb912 our co-host is also from Texas and uh I indeed uh the great state of Texas so you know what I wanted to get your view Joseph on what you thought and in the restrictions of hb912 and maybe you could share those with us yeah sure I mean I think that uh this is something that needs to get more exposure
and hopefully it will do so through you know through your efforts in this this podcast and so on but um I mean I don't I think people look at UAS as a nationwide issue but I think what it's really going to come down to is micromanagement in the states I think you have you have UAS uh regulations and laws being passed um in virtually what like 90 percent of the states right now and uh you know with Texas being this
you know the largest state in the contiguous U.S.
this is enormously important for potential operators and owners of of SUAS and I feel even the big boys as well um so I think that it's really important that we get out there and sort of educate people as to the proper responsible uses of this technology and sort of get away from you know the sort of time magazine you know predator with with hellfire missiles on short final over people's houses I mean that's just ridiculous that that really is there it seems to be a concerted effort to to vilify this this technology
and not enough uh effort out there to show people how many lives this can save how many dangerous positions you can remove humans from and use this platform instead so anyway with HB912 it's a bill that's making its way through to the Texas State House of Representatives at the moment it's been proposed by by Dallas State Representative Lance Gooden and what it does is make a legal any sort of possession or distribution of certain types of UAS based aerial photography
so in in this particular case one could find oneself going down to the corner hobby store and picking up any sort of you know model of any kind they put a camera on it that meets the criteria in this bill and find themselves a criminal if uh if they are you know characterized as such by someone that's observing them and you and I know that wherever you go this this type of technology these these little vehicles they draw crowds
and people come and they're they're interested they want to see what you're doing but they're also you know like we talked about the vilification of U.S.
they're also very skeptical and uninformed and I think they are likely to possibly accuse you of surveilling it and that's what that is part of what this bill is doing it's if one is accused of surveilling quote-unquote someone using aerial footage you're a criminal you've got a class b or c misdemeanor the bill will award five or ten thousand dollars in damages as well as awarding you know court costs at the plaintiff
so it's it could be quite a troublesome deal for you even if you are not out there with the intent to actually watch somebody with your UAS right you could find yourself easily on the on the back end on the back side of the power curve from the legal standpoint with all kinds of lawsuits and stuff and in a situation where you may have had all the necessary safety precautions liability insurance and all that kind of stuff is a
you know perspective business owner these kind of things that I think about I go out there and conduct a mission some bystanders or perhaps some people on adjacent property think that I was spying on them so what this bill does is enable them to to basically sue me to call police and that kind of thing so it just really complicates the issue tremendously I think that go ahead well I mean I just uh
you know like the the example I gave at the mall or you know I mean I could be there with my my uh canon 5d and be taking pictures of people and get people I mean it happens all the time I mean you could be getting people in uh your in the field of view who you don't know who are other people yes some people have a they think they have a right to privacy but I think that the boston thing shows I mean
I was um again to use that as an example there's just there's there's cameras everywhere I mean what is what is what is the privacy and we did touch on the 1984 thing but I mean people are tweeting and they're on Facebook and they're it's like they're giving their privacy away um again it's not a dodge but it just seems bizarre I mean all these all these other uses and and all the other cameras and sensors
and everything that's all over the place and all of a sudden people want some sort of special rules for uh for drones well it's true it is it is special and I should mention to be fair hp912 does not make illegal all types of photography there are exemptions or um non-applications of the rule for certain entities like if you're a university or law enforcement or within 25 miles of the border and that type of thing the bill doesn't apply to your your photography there
but if you're photographing real property or a person on that property and they and they uh feel that and here's where the bill gets really hazy it it doesn't really specifically define what is surveillance but so it puts the onus on you the the suas operator to prove that you weren't so you have to basically you know the cops have to be called you have to go through this ridiculous process of breaking down your system
and showing them the footage and then deleting it and all this kind of stuff it's really just it's kind of it's kind of silly but the the thing that that really bothers me the most particularly is a you know a former commercial full-scale pilot is that the bill makes no mention of what a full-scale aircraft in other words you can be conducting the exact same mission the exact same mission collecting the exact same images video or what have
you and it's perfectly legal so it's almost as if the author of authors of the bill are riding this sort of wave of misunderstanding on uas technology particularly back in the states what was that gene or taking advantage of it i joe i agree with you 100 the subjectivity of the content there is going to open up so many doors for frivolous lawsuits and i'm sure that most legislature legislators are going to have to see this simply because without that specificity you're going to be guilty until proven innocent
and anybody is going to be able to accuse you at any time because as patrick mentioned before we are litigious country we we've become more so as of late so you know right now the it went through the the criminal justice committee it's still there the bill has seven more stages to go through before it can be considered a law and my prediction is is that because of that and we have signing signed coming up on the 27th that's the last day the legislature for two years
and they are they have such a backlog that this thing has got to be fleshed out i mean any lawyer worth his salt will look at that and go oh my god you know this is going to open up a can of worms let's show this one until we can start filling in some of these blanks and i've got a suspension speaking that that one has got to die in committee well the other thing with that is i'm not really too surprised
i mean we broke that story on sus news about them dumping the the meatpacking plant dumping the blood into the river you know some some people got us i was a slap on the wrist situation but it doesn't really surprise me that this is happening and isn't there some something in the law that that would point to a reaction to that new story well i mean i don't want to draw any conclusions but if they're there
i mean if you're sort of reading the writing on the wall and you read you know your full story which was excellent by the way i really enjoyed reading it was very eye-opening and it says there's language in there that specifically protects you or protects a company or a person against having that footage subpoenaed if it's if it's you know captured incidentally so in the exact case of that guy you know just flying over a public waterway or whatever it was he incidentally captured
you know a breach in the regulation this would protect you know that that company or whoever from from having any of that footage subpoenaed so it seems awfully you know strange but you know why did they they put that in there it makes you wonder i don't i don't know i don't understand that part of it too too well but that's just yeah it seems coinkydinky do but i've been money and influence usually influenced a lot however we will have to carry that debate on at another time because we are over like
i knew we would be as we always are and we didn't even get to there was about 10 or 15 minutes of good stuff about test sites and i talked to the head of the uasio and berkeley and a possible book deal and a whole bunch of other stuff but you know what we're going to have to wait till next week anyone want to thank joseph for coming on and i want to thank trevor for coming on and jean for you being here
and let's say we'll see everyone next week oh the other big news and it's even going longer is the one-year anniversary show coming up may 8th we're going to do an hour of a remnant yeah we're going to we're going to flash back over the whole year have some of the guests come back on tell us what they're doing yada yada yada don't miss it'll be great till next week everyone talk to you later here thank
you bye thank you