UAS News Podcast — 2014-02-20
Transcript
Music Alright, hello everyone and welcome to the next installment of the UAS News Podcast Series where we interview news makers and discuss the news and applications relevant to the global Ironman Technologies community. I'm your program host, Patrick Eden, and as always let's say a warm hello and welcome to our co-host, Mr. Gene Robinson. Hello Patrick, how are you sir?
Back from the frozen north and enjoying the fact that the foxitonic paint was wrong because we have sunshine today. I feel like sometimes I live with that guy. Every day I get up it's like a circus around here. Somebody's snatching you up by the neck and showing you to a camera?
It almost feels that way, but it's actually the groundhog day of humanity. Every day there seems to be some story or some issue that comes up and it's just total disbelief. So kind of leading into this show, we're folks, we don't have a guest so to speak. We are just going to kind of set out some of the stuff that's going on.
There's lots of stuff going on. So I don't want to keep you out there before we start digging into the meat and potatoes here. That's what brought to my attention that maybe we should have a disclaimer for this show. I never really thought about that, but yeah, I'm going to throw that out here.
The disclaimer is as follows. Following topics covered are opinions and views expressed by people who have years of experience operating on man systems in the field. You need to understand the technology, risks and laws before emulating any of the following subjects matter at home. What do you think about that one?
Don't try this at home. Well, get educated first. I mean, it's kind of... If you think about it, we are carving new territory here and how are people going to learn, but we'll get into that.
All right. Now, first topic, and this is going to be rapid fire because we're down on the 30-minute thing. We've got lots of topics. The first and foremost thing that I want to talk about, Gene, is I did see we've got the new episode of Drone TV has dropped.
It is the prescribed burn, the NIST burn, and I was hoping since you're in this... You're in this episode, but I think you need to give people a little background about NIST and what you're doing also because when I talk to people about Gene Robinson and they go, oh, yeah, Gene, he's kind of that S.W.A.R. guy, right?
He's the S.W.A.R. guy. And I go, okay, man, Gene's not only the S.W.A.R. guy, Gene's also the NIST guy and he's the NIMS guy and he's a couple of other guys.
So could you please talk about the episode and also give us a little... Give us a little what the NIST is doing, please. Okay, very quickly, what the National Institute of Standards and Technology is doing is they are trying to determine what sort of exposure your home would have if you were in the wildland urban interface for fire. And that's kind of simply put, there's a lot of science to it.
And as you know, if you look at the map of the United States, there's some portion of the United States that's on fire at just about any time of the year. And the economic impact of that is just staggering. So what we're trying to do is we're using unmanned aircraft to fly over prescribed burns and we're actually kind of model how fire behaves. And I've got to tell you, this is some of the coolest stuff that I've done in a long time because it's really cutting edge science.
And yeah, I kind of had a first hand view of sitting in the catbird seat there in Bastrop watching these fires burn as we were flying overhead. And it took us 18 months of practice. We were out flying under our coa every six weeks, flying the super bad aircraft for days on end, fine tuning our cameras, our sensors, the imagers, everything that went on for 18 months. And we went out to Bastrop and set up these prescribed burns in a very controlled fashion.
And the numbers I heard is there was like 25 scientists on the ground, 75 firefighters, and of course us, the UA team and all that. And we flew over that while they burned these plots of Texas. And by every measure, it was just a phenomenal success because all portions of this very finely tuned machine came together at once. And it was really gratifying to get out there, fly over these things and have the chief scientists say, wow, we nailed it.
And we collected more data than any of the previous tests to do this. So it was very exciting. MahaPix was out there. We had some film crews out there from the BBC that were filming it.
It got quite a bit of coverage locally and a very positive use of unmanned aircraft. And man, I got to tell you, it was a good thing to be involved in. It was. And this was more of the good use thing that we're doing or you're doing or we're all kind of trying to get out there to the community.
And the Wildland Urban Interface, we did do a show about this. And we had Alex on and we talked about this and what we're trying to do. And it's again these positive uses that touch people's lives. I just did another article and the guy was like, well, there's drones things coming on.
And I'm like, now the drones are here. The drones are affecting your life. You may not know it, but they are. So from the episode itself, I've got to say I saw the, let's say, the pre-final version.
I've been a little busy. But I will say my hat's off to Ma because I felt, you know, I've been at these types of exercises, not just exercises, but one where you have different entities and agencies come together and put something together. And, you know, I felt like I was a participant. My guy was there.
I got the brief. I got to, you know, Trimble was there. He was also part of the family. How these scientists are setting this up and monitoring this thing.
How all the parts and pieces and different sensors are coming into play. I really felt like I was there. And that's exactly kind of what it's like, except it's not hot and smoky. And you don't have to use the port-a-potty.
What do you think? You know, I was a little nervous. The test plot was only about, I don't know, 20 meters away from the UA trailer where we were sitting. And the firefighters assured us that we didn't have anything to worry about.
But I got to tell you, it was interesting to see the fire that close. Yeah, fire and, you know, you're around fire. Fire has a way of getting out of control really quick. That's a fact.
And that was in the back of my mind the entire time while I'm standing there watching this fire approach the trailer. So it was kind of disconcerting, but it was nice knowing there was a line of firemen there that would tell me to run if I had to. See, it's nice to have friends with fire hoses, I guess, is the moral of that story. So, you know, I know every time you go out on one of these things, and you know, it's kind of funny if people are like, oh, well, you know, there are ways.
You know, this one, I just slapped my forehead. There's more groundhog pucks is how he feels. Oh, well, if you're using it, you know, for federal agency or public entity, you know, you can get a call or, you know, there's no problem flying. But every time you come back, we hear that there's some kind of shenanigans with the FAA.
How did this deal go down? Hey, Joe, that was pretty interesting. We had done that last year. We had flown, didn't have any problems flying out there because we had called for a temporary flight restriction, or actually we did and the Texas Forestry Service did.
And we went out there into the same premise and the Texas Forestry Service called for the PFR. And of course, you know, I guess my name is associated with the thing. And somebody up in the hallow halls up there, whoa, wait a minute, what is he doing out there and what are they going to be doing?
And the next thing we know, we were halted, you know, for the reporting of and with much wrangling and cajoling, we managed to get our COA extended to that area. So they were very helpful. They did help us out and get the COA extended. We did call for the PFR, as we always do.
You know, we want to try to keep things as safe as possible. And I will have to say, even though, and this is to, you know, the credit of the FAA wanting to keep everything safe, our COA, our PFR, temporary flight restriction, was busted four times in the course of one day. So here you go. It wasn't by UA.
No, no. The Gulf Stream was really close. Yeah, it was kind of interesting. And we noted that.
We let them know that it was. And of course, they're going to look right into it. But that's one of the things that's one of the things that, stop making me laugh, that's one of the things that, you know, I really think is important is to have the observers out and make sure that you see any aircraft that come in that are non-cooperative or pilots who can't read notums. So you have to be very vigilant of them.
Yeah, I'm going to be terrible. And I'm going to let that one go. Because I see that one. Yeah, that is kind of funny.
All right, I'm going to let it go. Anyway, I wanted to give a shout out to the episode sponsor, which was NLV. It makes a super bet. You've got Steve Morris.
He's actually been a guest on the show. And that is www.spyplanes.com. Spy Plane. And before anybody gets like goes off the rails, oh my God, Spy Plane.
You know, I think Steve had that website address for about 10 years and it was kind of tongue in cheek. You know, the NLV company had a hard time getting the website address because there's another big entity that uses the same initial. So it's hard to get anything in that range. Anyway, good guys.
You're a good guy. Make some good products. You guys are flying them down there. It's a great time and they do work well.
So the bet has been doing a fine job for us on these fires. I can't say enough about them. They've done really, really well. Well, then I would say good out and buy.
You know, everybody that's listening should get on that website and buy three. That's my endorsement. And then give me one because I don't have any money to buy it. And a little self-preservation in there in the end.
But yeah, good guy was also a sponsor last year at the SUA or SUSB Expo. And that's kind of the next topic I want to move into is the Expo update. A lot's going on there. We're working like mad dogs on that one, trying to get it all lined up.
There's lots of T's across and I's to dot and all the rest of that. But already people are really excited. Got people coming from China. I got people coming from Europe.
You're going to hear from people in Europe who actually can get this one, Gene. They can operate commercially and make money. How about that?
No way. I don't speak from the dupe. Well, they're from different countries in Europe. But one company is doing oil rig platform surveys in the North Sea.
Wow. And they're making a killing on that one because you don't have to shut the rig down to survey the burst action. So hey, the oil company's saving a mill and a half. The drone guy's making a little bit of money.
It's called business. So we're going to hear how business works. It's going to be excellent. It's going to be like, drone money?
What? How does this work?
Going to see how that works. I did invite, I invited both Jim and Peggy Gilligan to come out and speak. I have not heard back. I have a feeling there's going to be budget constraints and we'll be able to tell them, or San Francisco will just not be on the list.
I have a feeling. Just saying. Tell them for sure. We'll see.
It'll be nice. I think they need to do a better job of getting out and telling the general public kind of what's going on with them. I don't know. Who do you think?
If I were a betting man, now I'm not even going to bet. I'm going to be charitable. Okay. Well, you know, I mean, I have talked to people at the FAA and they go, oh, you know, we put everything in the public or the federal register.
And I have to say, my quote on that is, if people were reading the federal register, I doubt this country would be in the shape that it's in. So I don't think anybody would read that. I get up every morning and read it. I can't, just like the Wall Street Journal, don't you?
I can't believe we don't read it. I'll have to fill you in. Well, you know, the paper boy, he hasn't been able to porch that in the federal register, I guess, for the last, I don't know how many weeks, because I don't be out there. But yeah, no, not going to be folks reading that.
I don't read it every morning. I've got, you know, other flyers I've got to put out. But anyway, they have been invited and it is an opportunity for them to come out and speak to their constituents and say, hey, here's what we're doing. I've also had other people say, well, you know, oh, you know, everybody has to do this rulemaking and they kind of have to sequester themselves and there's this and that and take it from the public.
I say, oh, gosh, I want to see the code section in Title V of the USC, United States Code, where it says that rulemaking has to be done in private, not by it. I asked them to produce that when I was on the arc. I could not produce that. You know, so I'm not buying that over my new work.
Again, weapons. It's implied. I don't know who's in play in it. They work for the public and the laws are, you know, supposedly representative government.
But I don't want to get into that because people, you know, people, kids kind of stick behind that attorney and I didn't stay on holiday. And yeah, I got it. Let's just move on to the good news. Good news is.
Good news is for the USBSP is we have a sponsor for the search and rescue workshop that Dean Robinson will be hosting. I'm excited about that. I'm really excited about that. I wanted to, you know, people said, oh, you know, you can we can charge and, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah.
But, you know, they thought, yeah, OK, you know, there's value and we could charge per seat. But I started to, you know, I took one step back and I thought about it. It's like I didn't I don't want, you know, we're going to try to do an AP workshop, too. But what I don't want is I don't want people to think, oh, you know, be worried in the back of their minds.
This thing's got to be financially viable. So I wanted to find sponsors where I could just say, you talk, you sponsor or host a workshop. Just talk about what you believe is important. Don't worry about anything else.
The costs are covered. And I think that that is the most value in genuine transfer of knowledge. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you plan on talking about in this workshop. Well, first off, I think you should make mention of who our most generous sponsor is.
I should do that. It is the IPS NextGen. They were sponsors last year and I think people need to get out there. And when you come to the country, you will see if they have the IC4U truck.
There were people that were out front last year. He had his Rubicon car. He had his multi-router. He had the Spectrum.
Yes, you bet. And they have the IC4U truck, which has got all sorts of. He's got satellite uplink. He's got UHF.
He's got a cell phone. He's got everything in there. You could, that vehicle is like for disaster relief and comms or a situation that was a fire or earthquake or whatever. You could set that truck up.
You can run just about anything. Exactly. They have comms everywhere. You should check out.
And I don't have the website at the top of my hand, but I'm going to get it right before we get off the air. So maybe you could talk about a little bit of what you're going to do with the workshop. Yes. And there's been a lot of people even from last year that have asked me.
And of course, the book is going. And I think it's very interesting. I wanted to mention that the North Texas Drone Users Group here just a Saturday week ago had a FunFly in that had a SAR theme to it. And they were trying to push the technology a little bit further.
They had 45 people show up. They had seven of the nine registered teams competed. They had four multirotors and three fixed wings, an octocopter, one by a very narrow margin. They had placed 22 objects in a field that was 55 acres, roughly 55 acres of varied terrain.
And the most that they ever found was 11. So I think everybody got a pretty good idea that not only do you have to show up and you have to fly, but there's some other things that go on that help you find the objects that are in there. And that's some of the things that we're going to be talking about in this workshop. When you get out there, can you stay out there?
Can you fly out there effectively? Can you use the data that you get?
Because one of the things that they found is that they got more data in that Waxahachie field than they could process in a short period of time. And that's another thing that we're going to be discussing. How do you deal with all the data that you collect from your unmanned aircraft?
I mean, it's such a big deal. We take it for granted because we go out there and we do it and we look at these pictures. When you have two, three, 400 images, the entity command will look at you like you've got a horn sticking out of the top of your head when you walk in with that many images. It's going to be, you know, show me the money.
Where is it? What have you got?
And you need to be able to do that. And that's some of the things that we're going to cover in the workshop. Bandwidth, what sort of cameras to use, what softwares you can use, what software is on the horizon. Got some really exciting things on image analysis that are coming up that are freeware, by the way.
So we're going to cover a suit of nuts on this thing. And I think it's something that there's a lot of folks out there that really want to know because they would like to give that to the community in a positive way using their own aircraft. I concur with that. So, you know, we're going to have to have a signup sheet for that.
But, you know, if you pay to get in, you get to go to the SAR workshop, you'll get to go to the AP workshop. That's going to be good stuff, man. Don't miss it. I've got the site address.
It's www.ipsnxgen.com. Go there and check them out. They were gracious enough to sponsor the SAR workshop. My hat's off to Clarence and Dave out there.
Thanks again on that one. He's a good guy. He is a good guy. I like him.
I'm going to do more stuff with him. He's a good old boy. So I've got to move on to the next one because, you know, we're already, we're at about seven minutes out before we're wheeled up on this field. We're still wheeled off.
Go, go, go. Okay, the NASA UTM. Okay, that was the Unmanned Traffic Meeting at NASA Ames. And I want to run through this real quick.
Who was there? We had the old guard was there. Ted Weir has been asked he was there. He was the presenter at the show.
Paul McDuffie, myself, and Andy Latcher from MITRE, who I'd also speak about at the show at the expo, about flying in unnavigable airspace. And again, the expo is about finding ways to make money or use this technology in a positive way. So we're going to try and get him on. So anyway, the subject matter there, there was soup to nuts.
A lot of stuff that we've heard over the years, kind of some of the same stuff. You know, people are thinking about tests and uses and things that this stuff has already been hashed. I was a little disappointed at that. I will say that at the table that I was sitting at, it was me, Ted, and Paul sitting there.
And the conversation really centered around the center of the table with us and what was going on. And even people that are names that you hear all the time, companies or whatever, people don't have the definitions correct. People don't really understand even what they're doing. And I will say one thing that I am noticing is there is a large gulf between, you know, it used to be all DOD people and aircraft manufacturers, your Boeings, your Northrop Drummonds, you know, those people, and no commercial people.
Well, Amazon was there. And the two ways that people are looking at this equation is black and white. Amazon, you know, we want thousands of these things and we want to fly them around and yada, yada. And we want the DOD side, oh, we've got to figure out some kind of demonstration we can do and take it like to some agricultural show, take it to the HAI show, take it to, you know, some, which is not a bad idea.
I'm not going to knock the idea that it's bad. But when you look at that kind of DOD style of, oh, we'll take it to one group, you know, that is going to take forever. Okay. It's going to take years and years to do it.
Amazon did more for drones than anybody else has done in the last 10 years. I mean, I was talking to Gus early this morning and he was telling me that even people in his neighborhood and people he talks to think that Amazon is actually delivering with drones. I run into that myself. People already believe that Amazon is delivering and there's no belly aching.
I don't hear anyone belly aching about Amazon using drones. I heard a few voices in the wilderness when it first happened, you know, but by and large most people are like, I'm cool with that, send me my DVDs, please. I was just about to say, I wonder how many people actually ordered a CD hoping it would be delivered by a drone. I know you did the key to the drone.
So there. And then, you know, the other thing is they gave a statistic and I didn't really catch it right because I was a little disgusted, but something about, you know, they're shipping 1500 drones a month or it might have been more, but that's through Amazon selling drones. I mean, the drone thing is just they're here. So just accept it.
Yep. The other thing I want to talk about is one thing that I, this was another Popsutani film, Forehead Slapper, leaving the NASA meeting, you know, and it was put out that, you know, the SAA needs data and you know what's coming, but they still haven't figured out what data they need. And I almost came unglued at that point. I just was like, are you kidding?
It's 10 years we've been here. We need data, but we don't know what we need. As I recall, that was one of the first meetings that we went to after Reno in Dallas, but that's exactly what they told us. They were telling us that.
We want data. We're talking to them. Yeah, and that was literally 10 years ago. Exactly.
They still don't know what they need. I wanted to throw up. I was kind of disgusted. I mean, people are like, oh, geez, Earth guys are cutting the hog head.
It's like, oh, OK. I mean, I just don't get it. You know, a lot of the old NASA guard was not there. That was a mistake because, you know, I was trying to tell people there, you know, there are a lot of newcomers and they're like, well, you know, we have to do these tests and we have to talk to the FAA about equivalent level of safety.
You know, OK. But we can't go shotgun style and figure and do all these tests. It's going to cost you much money and it'll take too much time. I said, you know, when you talk about the equivalent level of safety, did anybody here even know what that means?
And yeah, I kind of, ours are kind of going around. I'm like, we're talking 10 to the minus 5, 6, 9. Does anybody know what that means?
And they kind of look around and go, well, I said, well, what it means is, because when I was on the ARC, we had a guy count this out, and basically what it means is I would have to fly in a cracker barrel for 200 years without any interruption and no failures. You know, I told them I'm taking vitamins, I'm drinking carrot juice, man, but I don't think I'm going to make it. I'm not sure if that's your middle name. No, you know, I just don't think that's going to happen.
So a lot of people don't understand what's going on with that. So I'm a little frustrated. You know, I looked at the other guys that were there. They're frustrated, very frustrated too.
This is kind of the same talk, talking about the lobbying efforts. People were talking about that, how come it didn't work. And I'll tell you straight away why the lobbying efforts have not worked, because what they are is the lobbying efforts of the DOD business plan being pushed to Congress and SAA. Even people that are in the DOD sector understand now, like I've been saying for the last seven years, that that will not work.
Even they're admitting, yes, this will not work. The other thing I was pushing at the meeting is that this community has got to get away from the extrajudicial killing machine, the predator and the reaper. You really need to tell them, here's your money back. We can't play with you.
There's just no way you are ever going to cover the stink of killing kids. There's just no way. There's no way you can get around it. So we can't even play with them.
The other thing is the test site takeaway. I did talk to, you know, there were several test site people were there, and they said, well, you know, we're here. We've got this test site small business. You can come on out and fly.
And I asked, OK, well, you know, what's it going to cost and what do I get? And nobody is really solid on that yet. The FAA isn't really solid on what they want the test sites to do. And it looks to me like September of 2015 is just slipping away as we sit here and watch.
Yeah, kind of a thing. So there's the good news from that meeting. I'm really alone. But the next thing I want to talk about is I wrote an article and I'm supporting, I think it's AD1327.
Again, I'm not on the page, but it's for the use of drones in California and by basically public entities. And I've had some people beat me up on this. They beat me up because it says that the police should get warrants to constitute the search. I believe that that's OK.
The public really doesn't trust the police with this technology. And I don't want to throw the baby out with a bath water. And if they need training wheels, so be it until they can have a track record that they can use this technology responsibly. I think that one of the first times that the privacy issue raised its ugly head or reared its ugly head was in Houston in January of 2010.
You remember that, Gene? I remember it very well since it was in my backyard with the ScanEagle flying and the media being held at arm's length and claims of temporary flight restrictions that weren't there. And yeah, it was a debacle. That's a very appropriate description.
De-bacle. I mean, I don't think that you could have my design come up with something that would give people more trepidation than that. I mean, if you're like, oh, listen, what can I really do?
Oh! I mean, I can think of one other way you could really send them into a tailspin. Look, you know, I don't understand what it is. And it goes back to the people that work for the public, get a paycheck from the public, you know, want to spend public funds on equipment tactics or whatever that they're going to use on the public, and they want to sequester themselves and talk about this in private.
I have never heard a notion so inane in my entire life. Do you think I'm wrong on that, Gene?
I know. This whole lack of transparency in just about all facets of the government has become very disconcerting over the years. And I'm pretty easy going when it comes to that. But this is getting blatant.
It's, you know, it makes me want to blow my stack. I just don't even get it. How can you work for the public and not want to bring the public into conversation?
I'm going to state it again here. And I said this before this stuff started to happen, that employees want to use this technology. Don't use DOD systems. Get away to say no to air superiority grade aircraft.
Use systems made by small firms that make them. Don't talk about weaponizing them. Bring the communities that you serve into the conversation. You know, bring them to the meeting.
Show them what you want to buy. Show them how you want to use this. Show them how it works. Sit down and say, hey, this is what we want to do.
We want to hear feedback from the community. We want everyone to feel comfortable about it. It's that easy. This is, you know, they hire these consultants and focus groups and all the rest of these people.
And they know like I said, they must be related because they give them bad info. You know, I don't even get it. It's very simple. I don't even get it.
I don't know. Patrick, I think you kind of proved your point when I was surprised that you did it. But you actually went to that group, that anti-drone group in Berkeley, you know, the most liberal bastion in the United States. There's nothing against that.
But I mean, they were the ones that were, you know, ready to stand up for the signs and start chanting no drones, no drones. And you went into the lion's den and you got to talking to them and said, you know, hey, this is what we want to do. And there was a lot of folks that went, oh, hey, that makes sense. So you kind of got a little bit of a track record about going in there and explaining it to them and having it work.
Well, and I don't think, you know, I don't think like I'm Daniel or anything going into the lion's den here. But I mean, you know, if you go there, you can talk to them. And if you talk to them like people and you know, the canned goods, just forget about it. Just forget about the canned goods and talking points.
These are the very talking points. I'm going to roll in here. They will make mint meat out of you because you're not being genuine. You go in there, you say, hey, I think a lot of people are under the misconception that people that are pro-drone are like, you know, anti-constitution.
Whoa, I'm all about the constitution. So I think we can have both and we can have responsible drone use. And I think that that's going to be OK. So the main thing, my main push for AB 1327, is Section D, Part 1.
A public agency other than a law enforcement agency may use an unmanned aircraft or contract, contract for the use of an unmanned aircraft system to achieve the core mission of the agency provided that the purpose is unrelated to the gathering of criminal intelligence. Fish and game, water resources, Department of Agriculture, forestry, forest fire, fire fighting. Rescue, yes, on and on and on. Yeah, so you know, when we hear people go, oh, and they're hammering on, this is what I care about because this is where the money is for you, me and other people that want to be in this industry.
That is where the money is. Not spying on your neighbors, you know, not any of this other stuff that these people are worried about. I want to do some science, man. I want to, you know, save some fish.
I want to, you know, that's the route thing. But anyway, that's why, man, I hope that clarifies it for people because, you know, I had arguments with AUDSI about it. I don't really care. They're going to fight me on it.
They can go nuts and do whatever they want to do. I'm not going to. I'm not running this stuff down anybody's throat. You know, I think we need to be responsible.
But anyway, that's about all I had for this week, Gene. You got anything else in closing, Doug?
In closing, it would take too long, but yeah, there's plenty out there. We're going to talk about a lot more in the future, I think, but looking forward to the expo and looking forward to doing a lot more flying. I hear that. I am really looking forward to the expo.
I don't think that I will be able to sit in on your workshop, which is kind of being the guy that kind of is running the show on that deal. It's stink because I got so many jobs to do that I can't listen to the presentations or hear what people have to say. But, you know, I don't want to believe on you about that. Anyway, thanks for being on this week and thanks for everything that you do, Gene.
And I'm looking forward to seeing you here in May, and we'll talk soon. Take care. Get your stick back. All right.
Thank you, Dave.